Avalon Page 2: Spoiler Discussion

I noticed that Ash used Murphy’s gun after she shot him. The scene showed her reloading his gun and taking it inside. Do you think there was any significance to that?

Hi Kodos, sorry I didn’t notice that. I’ll look for it next time I watch this. Perhaps others have some thoughts on it.

I think it is like a weapons upgrade.

Like i said before i think everything we see in the film is part of the game. Each level of reality is another level in the game. Including Ash herself. We (or Oshii for that matter) get to play the game through Ash.
Ash receives a new gun from Bishop when she enters the next level of the game with the specific objective to shoot Murphy.
Perhaps the final “boss” and the completion of the game can only be achieved by using Murphy’s gun. We don’t know whether or not Ash shoots the ghost and completes the game. All we see is “Welcome to Avalon”. This would indicate either the completion (you won! want to play again?) or a reset (you died! want to play again?) - Welcome to Avalon.

Of course it is also possible we get to see the world through the eyes of Ash herself: the disconnected feeling about the real world, not fitting in, a sense of not belonging.
With a lot of people nowadays their gameworld increasingly becomes the real world (think WoW-addicts) making the players body an empty shell while their ghost lives on in the gameworld. Maybe entering Class Real is another level where we get to make the choice of permanently leaving the real physical world as our soul/ghost gets uploaded into the gameworld. The ghost Ash shoots might be the disconnection of her own ghost from her body allowing herself to be uploaded into the game-system itself. Welcome to Avalon.

Kind of a scary thought because this just might become possible in the future. Scary because I think a lot of people actually will prefer a game world over reality.

Did I already mention this is my favourite movie?

Neuromancer

To SFAM: Man, I love you (for top 50 topic and for that site).

But I hate you for onething. When you mentioned this movie on forum, you wrote that Avalon was filmed in Hungary.

I’m from Poland and Avalon was filmed in my country. I really like Hungary, but that is very offensive to me. TIA

Hi Mattness, I’m truly sorry that you hate me for that. The Hungary vs Poland was purely an oversight on my part when I originally wrote the review (I always knew it was Poland) - although I corrected that many many months ago. Where do you still see me referencing Hungary?

mattness - chill out, man. I’m from Montenegro, but since people only know of Bosnia and Kosovo, they never get it right. If I “hated” everyone who made that mistake, I wouldn’t have that many friends right now. SFAM is one of the coolest blokes I know, and he’s trying really hard to get things right, but you’re forgetting one thing - he’s doing all of this by himself, with just a little help from his friends. Cut him some slack.

Hi Mattness, the pre-war comment really adds a lot - you definitely get that feeling watching it.

BTW, the R1 release of Avalon has a pretty detailed interview with Oshii where he discusses that very point (exotic language). He also mentioned he treated the actors like anime characters, meaning he told them virtually NOTHING about what his thoughts where - he just told them where he wanted them to be and what he wanted them to do. I can only imagine how frustrating that must have been for the actors. So it doesn’t surprise me at all that Foremniak had no idea what Oshii wanted.

if class real is supposed to be reality, why does Murphy “vanish” after he dies??? shouln’t his body remain.

Hi incte333, Class Real is still in a virtual world. It is “real reality” in the sense that Murphy has rejected the real world as “real.” Even though Class Real is virtual, it is in Murphy’s mind where humanity actually belongs.

I had thought that Ash actually returns to her barren reality. The one of the heads of the 2 cupids is broken in the her real world. It may be a foreshadowing since at the end she takes the gun into the auditorium and we see the ghost there with 2 cupids (with 2 heads).

Perhaps she shoots the ghost (and the bullet breaks one of the cupid’s head) and she returns to her reality. Perhaps she becomes the administrator (like the old lady managing the entrance). Hence, her statement “my reality is what I make of it” would then hold true - since she’s now administrating Avalon. Either she becomes the administrator or she becomes the Game Master - whom she had extensive conversations with in the movie.

By the way - what happened to her dog?

Avalon: Or the Story of Ashe, the Unreturned

We see Ashe emerge from the game terminal crypts, and then redeem her points as cash. During this sequence, she looks up and sees the broken-headed cherub statue.

Later, she confronts the ‘ghost’ girl, and when Ashe fires her pistol, the bullet shatters one head of the (intact) cherub statue which is behind the ghost.

‘Welcome to Avalon’ is the beginning of the VR loop for Ashe; she relives her terminal adventure repeatedly, or at least as often, as she is afforded a visit by the only ‘real person’, Bishopa, who is her therapist, and who is paid to do this work by the Avalon Foundation.

The ‘clinic of the unreturned’ was shown only within the game; in reality, it is a high-tech ward, where Ashe herself resides, along with all of the other ‘unreturned’. In this ward, we would see all of the tech gear which is needed to keep life in the unreturned. It is consistent that within the game, the theme of the game is maintained. At no time do we, the viewers, see the actual ‘real’ world, where the actual clinic of the unreturned exists as a modern hospital.

Ashe does not recognize the shattered cherub statue, as she stands waiting for her cash at the terminal counter. But it was she herself who fired the shot which shattered the head of the cherub. The fact of her oblivion to this significant object (which like Humpty, and Ashe herself, could not be reassembled) goes to show her oblivion to the endless loop of her VR lifestyle, as well. Mercifully, she has amnesia, which allows each replay of her loop to be as vivid as the first.

Bishopa is a paid therapist. He enters VR to interact with the various unreturned, to keep their consciousness from going stale. Perhaps the massively parallel supercomputer which runs AVALON does not have the raw processing power to run each and every unreturned’s loop at the same time; perhaps each loop plays, only when Bishopa does his scheduled immersion for theraputic purposes.

The AVALON Foundation is indeed, quite deliberately serving the ends of the most advanced and vital science, as several readers have commented. It is our choice to live, or to die. But AVALON offers a new alternative; to live forever as consiousness in a ‘game’, whose drama and stakes are truely immediate and engulfing. We can only hope that such brilliant minds emerge in our future, to expand the life/death (1/0) binary choice into a third, and compassionate one.

BTW, the dog represents the same sort of ‘glitch’, as does the black cat in The matrix… but Ashe, although provided with this clue, does not (cannot?) have the sort of internal conversation, which would result in her awareness of her dilemma (choice?) to be permenantly ‘in the game’. Bishopa uses this information diagnostically, and scripts the action accordingly.

Great website, I resonate with your review ratings…

==Gene Poole==

Touchdown!
Great post there vastgene.
It seems this movie has gained another disciple!

Hi Gene, absolutely terrific post! Sorry I didn’t comment on it earlier. I love everything but the Dog/Cat analogy. I’m not seeing that. Oshii uses the dog in every movie of his, and it seems to always have the same meaning - the here and now - real reality if you will. This is Oshii’s way of saying Class Real “is” the only reality that matters.

SFAM’s comments are all very interesting, but I’m not sure there is all that much to this type of movie. Given that Ash would clearly believe that Avalon is just virtual, any attempt to “accept” that as some sort of reality must obviously fail. Contrary to the movie’s reversal of our life’s experiences, Avalon is set up as superficially more interesting and enjoyable than reality. The same approach in our daily lives can be found in the lives of people who involve themselves with drugs. Those of us who see them see nothing of redeeming quality in pursuing altered reality especially with such detremental side effects.
The point should be simply that life is by far the most interesting and exciting choice. For most of us, including the vast majority of folks who pass through life daily without spending much time on these issues, if given a choice reality is far more exciting. Actually, it is the only choice. By definition virtual is not real and thus is entirely a waste of time. Despite the premise that such a reality could be “structured” as an improvement over real life, few actually would accept that premise. The next question follows, what happens after you die? In virtual life, nothing because you don’t exist. Hardly exciting. Reality, however, includes religious views that relate life’s experiences to an after life. And, before this view is characterized as simplistic or naive, one should ask himself as to his actual understanding of the “real” world. Go into any bookstore of reasonable size and head for the Physics section. Take a quick look at books that discuss string theory and paralel universe. That is reality and far more interesting than any game, no matter what the technology employed.
I don’t believe anyone who really thinks about life can settle for the limits of some human trying to construct a world, when the real one has rules and boundaries that we have not yet even contemplated. Sorry, but I’ll take reality, because I believe it is far more fantastic than all the science fiction dreamed by any person.
Just my view.

Hi Anonymous (name please?), Nice post, although of course I would disagree. In Avalon, we are not presented with a world like ours is today, we are presented with a dystopia. The surroundings that Ash lives in are less than savory. On top of this, the one person she cares about is now somewhere else. Over the course of the movie, Ash’s mindset shifts. This is shown by the removal of the dog from reality to Class Real.

Whether or not you personally would take reality over this game system (I’d guess the vast majority of us would), this doesn’t really help us in determining if there is “all that much to this type of movie.” If we place ourselves in Ash’s shoes, perhaps our choice might be different.

First , I’d like to thank you SFAM for highlighting this movie for me.

I too am a fan of movies that make you think- the more the better IMHO

I “got hold” of this movie this weekend and watched it and loved it! (I’m going to watch it again after I finish this post…)

It’s got Oshii stamped all over it - and that’s a good thing from my point of view.

OK , diving right into the whole “what did you think of the ending ?” discussion….

The theory posted by vastgene sounds the most plausible to me.

I take on board all his points and add these few of my own :

Ash , hardly eats (near the start you see her eat some nibbles but that’s it) , this is highlighted throughout the whole film (and raises an interesting point with Bishop I’ll mention later) , the fact it’s pointed out so many times , especially in a film of this depth and nature , I feel there *has* to be a significance to it.

Vastgene’s theory of Ash already being “lost” fits this lack of eating - as she (a) would really be fed in the “real world” by drip and (b) if stuck in a perpetual looped simulation , could literally “forget” that eating was necessary (E.g. Matrix : Practice room : Morpheus to Neo “Is that air you think you’re breathing ?”).

Ash’s “reality” is as monochrome as the game itself , to me suggesting that it is itself another simulation. Also reinforced by the “neutral characters” she sees in that reality seeming predefined stationary “2D” backdrops (e.g. the people on the tram , the man in the window , the people at the station) , the only people that seem “real” are others that are in some way connected to the game itself (the players and the woman “admin”).

Ash’s lack of E-mails - a metaphor for her disconnection to “the outside world” , maybe ?

The disappearing dog : Big one this , when Ash first returns to the room in that scene she looks down and smiles as if looking at the dog directly (even waves the meat at the dog) , we the viewer hear the scampering paws on the floor , confirming that the dog is indeed there. Then , POOF , it’s gone , with no way it could have got out of the room (the door was most certainly closed) - our own (meaning the viewers) perception of reality tells us this simply isn’t possible - something is wrong with this world..

Add to that , when Ash goes outside looking for the dog we hear the sound effect of the Helicopters as they sound in the game.
All in all this leaves me the impression that the “reality” Ash is in at that time is beginning fall apart (i.e. Ash is beginning to “crash”) , and hence cannot be “real”.

At this point Bishop appears at her door for no apparent reason , could it be that somewhere off in the “real world” an alarm started to sound showing she need immediate attention , and Bishop “dropped in” to render assistance ?
(He does say something to the effect of “You need me…” , perhaps he meant it differently to the way Ash took it ?)

Now I come back to the food thing. Bishop takes a look at the food on her kitchen table and says “Your dog eats very well”.
It is said as a clear statement , implying that not for one second did he think Ash was ever going to eat the food herself. Then comes another reference to the fact Ash (and Avalon gamers in general) doesn’t eat.
As a “Bishop” , yes , he’s an expert at “gathering data” but his comments are said a definite statements - as if he already knows the answer - again a sign of “outside knowledge” beyond Ash’s experience.

Next , Does Ash shoot the girl ?
To me , yes she does , for these reasons :
First , the conversation with Murphy , where she denies the validity of “Class Real” by accusing Murphy of “deserting them” in favour of what she sees as a false reality. With that standpoint I find it hard to believe that she would choose to stay there herself.

Second , from the brief look we see of Ash in Class Real , it scares her. It’s so alien to her own reality that she cannot “deal” with such a world. Again this reinforces the view of Ash retreating away from “reality” and into herself.

Third , The two cherubs. It’s like the cherubs at the beginning are making a prediction or a prophecy of things to come. By shooting the ghost , Ash complete’s that prophecy. Making the whole simulated loop complete - literally making a “self fulfilling prophecy”. The simulation resets back to the beginning and Ash’s cycle in the game begins all over again - truly she is “lost” in Avalon (and perhaps this is in fact the TRUE nature of Avalon , that there is NO escape!).

One final thing I would like to mention , is that I believe that the initial point where Ash becomes “Lost” is during the flash backs to that fateful Wizard mission. The FX for the scene do not match the one other time we see a “reset” invoked - which seemed pretty instant , as Ash uses it to escape a missile attack.
In the flash back we see Ash “loosing it” and a gradual build up to a point where she goes “poof” in a cloud of green smoke with Murphy looking most distressed at seeing this. Also , Murphy is still “in game” to see this happen , again suggesting that what just happened was NOT a reset but something else entirely.

Anyways , if you read all of this , my mental wanderings , thanks

Hope I added something worth thinking about to this most cerebral of films.

[MM]

Hi Mad Martha, nice comments! I’m going to have to watch this again with the VR loop in mind. Offhand though, I still like my explanation better as philosophically, it seems to flow more with the ideas Oshii advocates in Innocence, but perhaps I’ll change after watching this for a fourth time. I will definitely pay closer attention to the food thing. Also problematic though is the dog in that Oshii always seems to use this symbol for the here and now “real” reality. If Ash is in virtual land at the beginning, then what do you see the dog itself symbolizing?

BTW, given your interpretation, how would you differ with my thoughts on the ending (meaning, why did Murphy take out the bullets, etc.)? Also, would you say that Ash is in Class Real from the beginning?

First , I’ll go to your Murphy question as I *do* have an idea on that one….

I’m making guesses here (as we all are , as we are all intended to be , I doubt even Oshii has a definitive answer for this story , I’m sure he just wanted to pose questions for debate…)

From my previous reasoning’s I’ve set that Ash is wholly surrounded in a VR existence, and implied that Murphy actually did NOT get lost but in fact Ash DID.

Taking Vastgene’s premise that Ash is really in some sort of high tech “clinic” (for want of a better word) and that Bishop is some sort of Therapist who ultimately wants to “help” Ash.

Bishop could have set up Ash to enter “Class Real” in an attempt to pull Ash further back to a point of being able to accept reality as opposed to her slipping further into Neurosis (as she was in danger of doing just before Bishop turned up).

In doing so , in an attempt to reach Ash , it makes sense that he would chose a symbol/person Ash could identify with , namely Murphy. (in this case either he could have bought the real Murphy into the VR scenario or generated a simulation of Murphy)

In the Class Real scenario , it can be argued that Bishop is presenting Ash an *example* of an alternative reality to her own personal “reality” in that she is *shown* that she could have a “real” existence with Murphy (and the rest of the world) but it entails her turning her back on her own self imposed “prison”.

For such therapy to work it would involve Ash willing making the choice HERSELF , and not having it forced upon her.

Thus , Murphy could not have had a loaded gun - if he had shot , it would have removed Ash’s choice and made the whole exercise pointless.

Murphy , in this scenario I’ve depicted would still remain true to your thoughts that he wanted to “save” Ash - but gives him different reasons for doing so….

I do not think Ash was initially in Class Real - but instead locked into a cycle of her own delusion , centering around the game (and caused by the game).
I think “Class Real” is a “construct” , an effort by those trying to help Ash to provide a stepping stone to try and break out of her own cyclic delusion. Which Ash (I think) rejects and returns back into her Avalon existence (again and again , thus the final “Welcome to Avalon” screen).

Now , “the Dog issue”.
The DOGS definitely mean something , and yes I do mean that plural. The only reaction Ash got to her presence when in her “real world” scenario was from the dogs - her own pet and the one on the platform.
What that could mean I do not know….

“Also problematic though is the dog in that Oshii always seems to use this symbol for the here and now “real” reality.” - Perhaps Oshii is deliberatly playing on that very line of thinking.

Initially he puts the dog into Ash’s reality to “fool” us into thinking it’s real - then at the right point blatantly removes the dog (kinda like pulling the rug out from under your feet) to completely throw you off balance.

From that point he removes the viewers “safe ground” and forces us to question *everything* - and THAT I think was his intention here…..

He then introduces the dog back into Class Real - either you could see that as Bishop trying to reach Ash with another symbol she identifies with and/or you could read that as Oshii saying to the viewer : “Reality is where you want it to be , and is NOT a fixed predetermined place.”

Does that go some way to answer your questions ?

[MM]

Hi MM, I certainly see where you’re going with this, although my reaction is that this is perhaps a bit to convoluted for Oshii. But again, I REALLY need to see Avalon again, as I haven’t seen it in quite some time, and the last few times I was watching more to confirm/understand my interpretation above, so I don’t really consider that an open mind viewing.

BTW, if you have the DVD, I believe there’s an interview with Oshii on it, where he discusses the dog. He’s spoken on this in a number of interviews though, including the time of Innocence, so I’m guessing the dog still means the “hear and now.” However, again, perhaps the dog may still mean this, even with a VR in a VR type interpretation. The other issue with that view though is the beginning where Ash spends essentially wandering, and visiting Murphy’s bedside. But again, your interpretation is certainly coherent, and you’ve definitely convinced me I need to see this movie again to look at it from the POV you’re advocating.

BTW, how would you square your interpretation with Oshii’s overall philosophy? Meaning what do you think he’s really saying about the nature of humanity here? I was on a vector seeing both Avalon and Innocence as exploring the idea that our bodies are becoming obselete - that existence in the hear and now is no longer necessary for us to be “alive.”

And I definitely agree that Oshii definitely likes to leave us with thought pieces versus clear answers.

“….although my reaction is that this is perhaps a bit to convoluted for Oshii.” - You say that after the whole 2501/Puppetmaster plot ? Or after the Innocence Reality Trap plot line ?
I think Oshii likes convoluted thinking , this really showed in Innocence with the Reality within a Reality Trap thing that was attempted on Batou…(I forget the proper name Batou called it)

If my line of thinking here was applied to Oshii’s own habit of making comments about “humanity” I would go back to my closing lines in my previous reply.

I think, here, Oshii is suggesting that sometime “soon” humans will have a much greater choice in how they define their reality.
With the suggestion that many would be more “comfortable” within their own “false/constructed” realities than having to face the real world distopia we are currently heading towards.

I think , in general , he’s asking each of us : “Is this the way you want things to go ?”

……..And leaving us to make our own minds up.

Hi MM, I get the impression that Oshii is asking us this question - he’s pretty clear on the point that Co-evolution of man and his tools will (continue to) dramatically increase. Our options will be vastly different in the future - moreso, our society will have changed. But to me, it seems clear he’s already made his mind up about how he would answer it - that yeah, our bodies are becoming obsolete. This message comes loud and clear to me in both Avalon and GITS Innocence. Incidentally, this is a different position than he took in the original GITS.

Regarding the convolutedness, I think Shirow needs to take a good bit of the blame for the puppetmaster.

But, um, yeah, point taken on the Innocence reality trap plot line. Touche’. That was about as convoluted as it gets!

This sooo needs to be preserved in the Forums.

OK , first I would like to retract the last two lines of my previous reply.
I was tired and replied quickly without giving it much thought.
On review , I feel I completely over simplified the whole thing and should have stopped while I was ahead a couple of lines earlier…

Moving on…

The whole “body is not needed” concept , while certainly part of the broader view of Oshii’s work , I don’t think is too relevant to this specific film , Avalon.

No-where in the film does it posit the question : “What happens to the digital consciousness if the “real world” body dies ?”

Your broad statement that “The body is becomming obsolete” suggests you believe the consciousness would indeed continue.

While that view may well fit with Innocence , it just doesn’t come into my view of this individual production.

It just isn’t covered….

Or is it ?

In order for Ash to “progress” into the next stage of the game (read: VR existence) she has to kill a “GHOST”.
…and we all know how Oshii defines “Ghost”….

Hmmm , metaphors and symbology afoot methinks

A fleeting image with no real explanation of it’s source , only visible while in the presence of a BISHOP , an intangible and elusive enigma that many consider to be a glitch , oh yes , there is most certainly a “Ghost in the Machine”…..and Ash has to kill it !

Now , I stop this reply “half done” , and this is why….

At this stage I was going to reference Solid State Society - which deals with this very issue head on.

BUT , I notice it’s absence from the site reviews and the fact you have not already spoken of it. (since it’s SO relevant to this discussion).

I’m going to take a leap here and guess : You haven’t seen it yet ?

OK , it’s not directly Oshii’s work , but is very relevant to the whole “obsolete body” discussion. (not to mention a great bit of CyberPunk Anime!)

If you have not already seen it , I suggest you get hold of a copy from somewhere and give it a view

I think you’ll agree it adds depth to the whole concept.

[MM]

Hi MM, no, I haven’t seen Solid State Society yet. I have this fault in that I really want to see good movies on my big widescreen TV instead of my computer. I don’t have a DVD of it yet, but will soon…

Regarding the covering of the bodies being obselete question in Avalon, I cannot think of a better way to show this than having a bunch of useless bodies drooling in a sanitarium. Avalon hits home with this message in spades. This, I think, is what the ending is about, as I mention above, and certainly meshes with why I think Ash is in the real world at the beginning.

And um, definitely don’t tell me the ending of SSS.

Uhh…
I’ve read this second page just now and my head is spinning. You people are so deeper into this than me although I spent some hours as well trying to find every little piece of the puzzle with my friend (and with a beer ^^).
And I have to re-watch the movie as well.

Since watching this again I’ve noticed 2 small points which I’m not sure conflict with anyone’s viewpoint. I’ve heard a few different interpretations of the film… although the sys-admin one here is one of the better and more consistent.

#1 When Ash first sees Murpny in Class Real, his mouth moves into a slow smile exactly like the ghost does later in the film.

#2 The ghost’s face, not only morphs into a smile much like the Mona Lisa… her face become patchworked, and her hair has distinct “ear” shapes… she seems to have morphed into the dog’s face.

I’ll try to dig up an interpretation I read a few years ago regarding the myth of Pygmalion… apparently the statue filmed where the head is missing/reappears is a very specific one that has significance I believe. I’ll post more if I can find that.

@Klaw: http://mitglied.lycos.de/smartianer72/

I prefer a less philosophical interpretation. I see this movie as Oshii’s inverted re-make of The Matrix.

The Wachowski vision was a planet conquered by machines with the ‘normal’ world existing only inside a VR, and a small community of free minds living outside of it. Individuals who sense a problem with their world can be freed and attain super gamer powers (the people of Zion). Those who prefer the illusion can remain as normal boring people in the safety of the simulation.

Avalon turns this inside out with a city of gamers that exists unknowingly inside a VR hidden from the perfectly normal outside world. This virtual community is governed by human ‘admins’ and was created as a solution to the problem of game-addicted individuals in the real world, with the hope of convincing them to prefer reality as Murphy did. Individuals who develop super gamer powers will sense a problem with the world and can attempt to free themselves and return to reality (the unreturned). Those who prefer the illusion can remain as gamers in the safety of the simulation.

Hi

Bye

Awesome analysis and very sharp comments.

Thought I’d like to add this link to this guy who analysed the girl at the end on the stage. He thinks there could be a link to the girl and the dog.

Check out the photos here to see what I mean

http://mitglied.lycos.de/smartianer72/

Of course what the dog means in relation as a motif to the entire movie I have no idea at this point in time.

The point was made above that Ash never eats anything substantial - and further, that this behaviour is intentionally emphasized throughout the film.

It is of interest to me that a similar emphasis is placed upon Ash’s acquaintance, the thief who was a part of team Wizard with her. He is portrayed as perpetually starving, gorging himself at every opportunity. His gluttony is filmed as an organic, animalistic character trait.

The interpretations you’ve shared here are very interesting, and wonderfully coherent.

Vastgene’s hypothesis rings true to me, I’m just wondering how the thief fits into this picture.

Another point of curiosity to me are the books Ash is studying. To the Bishop, they appear blank. They appear to exclusively revolve around the King Arthur / Avalon theme.

And what do you people think about “class Real” being a “release valve” of super (class A) players out of the simulated war game?

Hi,

first of all I just want to say I haven’t read everything, its way to much. so what I’m about to write might already been said above.

If you look at the real world in the beginning, People stand around like statues, something that is not normal in a “Real” world. so my guess is that this first real world is a computer world. with people as background.
For example: in the Tram we see the same people/statues every time she rides it. (probably the programmer of the “future time” didn’t have enough time to create moving/talking people

when she goes to SA real world, that still isn’t real, because her friend dies and disappears in 1s and 0s

why the girl smirks so mean, don’t ask, I don’t know. but I think “Welcome to avalon” just means welcome to the real real world… Where she gets flushed into the sewers of a robotic ruled world. the bishop lives there on a hovercraft searching for the One… Or something like that HAHA

that’s my theory, maybe a bit simple, but, it doesn’t always have to be complicated.

Great comments everyone.

I just want to offer some other food for thought. Please note that I do not necessarily believe what I wrote below. Nevertheless, I find the ideas interesting.

I was curious if anyone has considered the various implications of the class real objectives of killing an “unreturned”. Technically, I believe Ash is considered an unreturned while she is in class real. It is possible (building upon vastgene’s original post) that Ash could kill herself and complete the class real objective. This might “free” her of this perpetual VR loop. Plus, why is Murphey the only unreal she encounters in class real? She obviously has feelings for him. The probability of just bumping into each other would be extremely small; unless it was predetermined by the game. Maybe, Bishop hopes that killing him would send her over the edge and she would kill herself.

I also find it interesting that class real had NO time limit. Was this class real rule encouraging her to stay as long as she liked?

If this is not a VR loop, I seriously doubt that Ash wanted to stay in class real. If she wanted to stay, why would she kill Murphey at all? It would be a waste. They could just live happily together in class real. For her to kill him and then stay makes no sense at all to me.

All the best,

newtron

in the Tram we see the same people/statues every time she rides it

And in that portion of the movie all of the people outside the game building are standing at right angles - they all face one of four directions. This seemed to me like a hint that either that “real” world was an incredibly constrained society by convention, or that those characters weren’t real people. The dog on the platform was a conspicuous exception.

Welcome to Avalon…..the end words welcome the viewers to the loop-cycle of interpretation. Since there is no definite answer as to what is “really real” for Ash, there is no real answer for us, as the evidence is ambiguous in nature (very much like the virtual realities themselves). Thus, any thoughts that come post-screening the film are thoughts that send us chasing after our own tails (the dog analogy). Ash is stuck in a loop of questions without answer, as are the viewers (aside from that which we make for ourselves). It is all a game, Oshii the game master, the film itself the game, Ash our avatar, and we the viewers are the player. In this case the only way to win is to not play.

Dave, your phrase ‘The only way to win is not to play’, reminds me of WarGames, where the computer program says at then end, after playing several simulations of global thermonuclear war:

the only way to win this game, is not to play. The he asks: Shall we play a game of chess.

I did not yet see this movie Avalon. Seems hard to torrent / download. and even harder to get hold on in our little country. As having no visa or something, importing this movie from the usa, is nearly imposibble, so downloading is way the only option for us, in this small european country.

anyhow, a good review, and seems to me a very nice movie to watch. Has anybody also watched, the 13th floor ?

Discussing the final scenes: I think that Class Real is actually the real world. Ash has been stuck in the virtual world of the game. The ghost symbolises Ash’s commitment to the virtual world. It symbolises all the reasons that she is there and symbolises Ash’s virtual image. By destroying the ghost she can finally leave the virtual world.

But I don’t think she understands this herself. Its like part of her wants to be free of the virtual world and part of her is content to keep playing the game (where the ghost is just another objective.)

Once in the real world Ash sets out to destroy her only link to the virtual world. Murphy. This may explain why he vanishes in the digital way he does. He is the only thing there that represents the virtual world, and destroying him is symbolic of her determination to stay in the real world. But again, its almost like part of her knows this truth and another part is content to “keep playing the game”. Its like her subconcius is guiding her onto the right path but her conscious can’t see past the reality of the game world.

I’m still thinking about it.

@Stormtrooper: I found it on warez-bb.org, but I had to hunt down some English subtitles. And its in pretty crappy quality.
And 13th Floor is also awesome

I think that debating whether the sepia-toned world that Ash lives and the world in Class Real is real is up to the viewer. However, this is a matter of perspective. For me, I believe both worlds are not real since Murphy disappears in the same way in Class Real when he dies like any player does in the Avalon game, while the sepia-toned world has questionable elements that make me believe it’s still within the game itself.

In the game, players often talk about killing the ghost as a way of entering Class Real. However, after Ash kills Murphy, she does not win the game and return to the “real” world where she lives. Instead, shaken by Murphy’s last words, Ash enters the concert hall and is about to shoot the ghost. Perhaps, Ash does not accept Class Real “as the world where she belongs” like Murphy said, and she instead has another thought: what if I don’t think I belong in this world and is not the one for me?

In the sepia-toned world, most inhabitants accept their world as real. Murphy does not accept this, and believes that Class Real is the real world, where he belongs. He assumes the same for Ash too. However, he is partly wrong in that aspect. He does impart this wisdom to Ash, but I believe she thinks neither Class Real nor the sepia-toned world is the world for her.

To that end, I think Ash most likely shoots the ghost. Like its function, shooting the ghost meant that the player progress from the game to Class Real, a previously inaccessible area. What if Ash shoots the ghost IN Class Real? Will she be brought to a new plane of existence, a kind of ascendance to the next level? Just like Murphy has found his place in the world where he belongs, Ash will now keep going to find the world where she belongs.